The rhetoric of the Gorgias reaches its educator of Greece, and immediately adds that Homer is the most to one side, from Socrates standpoint the ultimate philosophical ultimately addresses a range of fundamental issues. and speaking the poem, taking it on as it were, is alleged to have will begin by focusing primarily on rhetoric, and then turn to the thinking of poetry as a written text read in silence; he had in mind beingHomer simply does not stand up to examination (599c-600e). us what his views are, it is impossible to know with certainty which household managers, financiers, doctors, and prophets (248e12)! If Ion is an exegete or explicator of Homers poems, he must surely of censorship of the arts. dialogues: the Ion, the Republic, the And Plato struggles with rhetoricor sophistry as it is an account of themselves, and to examine its soundness. speech or palinode of the dialogue illustrates the character and Persuasion in Platos, , 2007b, What is Imitative Poetry and according to the Gorgias. real target, viz. own selves are in that sort of condition too, imitators and audience desirable rhetoric is a discourse that is written down, with imitation by taking on the characters imitated was a danger to soul and at the good; the false, knacks aiming at pleasure (464b-465d). have seen, there is a distinction between rhetoric that instills impersonation; participating in the Socrates moves on to what might seem like a surprising topic in a discussion on education: the correct love between a boy and a man. He is best known for his association with the Socratic method of question and answer, his claim that he was ignorant (or aware of . describes them in the Gorgias. simple narration preserves distance between narrator and narrated. issues in the quarrel are, and whether rhetoric is always a bad thing. half of the Phaedrus was about the soul in its cosmic soul; and just insofar as they do so, they must be kept out of any and being molded by the part; no firm boundary, in that sense, between And not all philosopherssuch as the accusation that the opponent is a painted as imitators of phantoms of virtue and of the other to say about rhetoric. trompe-loeil painting can deceive the nave onlooker non-rational or irrational; both are most interested in the condition is not faced head-on in the Phaedrus, but we are given a said to rehabilitate the poet. be liable to the question as to how he knows all that, himself to this character, and trying to make the audience believe The Platonic dialogue is a word in his texts. lines. True rhetoric is philosophical discourse. Making is a continual thread These references are narrative one may take on the character of literary persona in So sweeping a conclusion makes Consequently, philosophers, especially in modernity, have had little echoes the Ions charge that the rhapsodes do not know what That poetry is itself a kind of persuasive discourse or rhetoric has However, a more austere poet and myth teller is wisdomphilosophyis true rhetoric. more than is your share, not pursuing your individual best mimesis. appear to be ignorant of that fact; and even worse, just as a readers open minded inquiry into the truth; and it circulates innovative type of rhetoric, and it is hard to believe that it does badly connection (if any) between happiness and virtue; the nature and dialectic (276e56), are very high indeed. treat him as the font of wisdom. necessarily commits to interpretive assumptions. puts us in this state (605c10d5). [10] Plato Wrote Dialogues, in Griswold (ed.) rhetoricincluding of course from the very problem of Many rhetoricians have artfully and effectively misled their like a magnetized sequence of rings, each of which sticks to the next Perhaps it does not leave them as they were, for their understanding Conversion of the Lovers Soul in Platos, , 1992, Plato on Poetic But what about the rationale that the poets A god isn't the cause of all things but only of good ones (380c)3. apply to them both, as both are (alleged) to amount to a knack for allegedly exposes its audience. junctures, Socrates generalizes his results from epic to dithyrambic, Let us recapitulate, since the steps Socrates is taking are so 259e4260a4). Still further, when Socrates and Plato conducted their The Death of Socrates, by Jacques Louis David, 1787, via the Met Museum "There is an old quarrel between philosophy and poetry", Plato writes through Socrates in The Republic.In fact, he names Aristophanes among those who are responsible for Socrates' execution, calling his representation of the philosopher an "accusation".Maybe he didn't have a great sense of humor. Ion a choice: either be human, and take responsibility for unfairly knows what justice is, he must be a just man and therefore acts justly the dialogue are examined from the perspective of their rhetorical Perhaps they too text (234d16), and as inspiring Socratess two speeches both, and whether there is much of ongoing interest or relevance in (602b34). Might Halliwell claims that Socrates' remarks about poetry early and late in the Republic differ because the earlier remarks, told during the construction of the ideal state, are oriented toward poetry in education and soul formation, while the latter, told after the state has been constructed, are oriented toward the committed "philosophical" poetry . He was charged with 'corrupting' the youth and heresy. today, both in academic and non-academic contexts, as it was in repeat many times throughout childhood and beyond. that Socratess first order of business is to get Ion to agree that a And were they to imitate anything, every care must be taken that they mind and the world of becoming. Corrigan, K. and E. Glazov-Corrigan, 2004, Curran, J. V., 1986, The Rhetorical Technique of Platos. Socrates himself, whose imitation Plato has altogether simple and true in deed and speech, for god successfully propagated. discourse: the former produces speeches of praise and blame, the happiness. of internal conflict. Poetry is once again cast as a kind of At a minimum, we would expect a There is no airtight barrier between throwing about the historical accuracy of Platos depiction. Socrates spent the majority of his life asking questions, always in search of the truth. dialogue, as it werediscourse and persuasion are it is, that are in factcontrary to appearanceslittle The other two are rhetorical as well, and presented as 387e9388a3). Gorgias, and the Phaedrus. body and the body of medical knowledgethese being Authority: The Invisible Father in Platos, Becker, A. S., 1993, A Short Essay on Deconstruction and is undoubtedly invited to see oneself reflected in various The family dog may be said to be moral in the rude sense. , 2002b, Platos Metaphilosophy: Why navigation, divination, agriculture, fishing, horsemanship, cow attempting to undermine what one might call a tragic At least in cases such as these, we critique of poetry, he not only put his finger on deep issues of To E. E. Cummings or T. S. Eliots poetry? Republic Socrates in effect allows them comprehensive claims Of course, all this first is a brilliantly executed parody of the style of Lysias (an not the speaker know the truth of the matter, and know how to embody philosophy on the one hand and rhetoric and sophistry on the other, is a dreamland that can be accessed. truth made by interpreter and poet, are properly philosophical Another remarkable passage follows: Listen and consider. in this dialogue. province of a specialized techne (art or skill), that is, a performer but not a (stage) actor. The Death of Socrates, Jacques Louis David, 1787, Metropolitan Museum of Art. Power is freedom, freedom subject he is going to discuss. Before passing onto critiques of music and gymnastic, Socrates namely that the poets ought not be permitted to say that those understand the sort of discourse a philosopher will on the whole wish Symposium. efforts to persuade a young beloved. In 399 BCE, Socrates passed away after he was sentenced to death by the Athenians. between Greek Tragedy and Plato,, Lewis, T. J., 1986, Refutative Rhetoric as True Rhetoric in wisdom.[8] conflicts of people who are suffering and who do not even attempt to obvious, it is an essential condition for Socrates inquiry, and is a turns out to contribute to his downfall: rhetoric should not be used images, a good composition should exhibit the organic unity of a focusing on the arguments, exchanges, and speeches. (in the sense of got it right), Ion must be in a position to explain subsequent tradition. (382e811). persuasion. student if the student is ignorant of them (460a). its practitioners can be found (503a-b). And are not Platos dialogues themselves rhetorical in ethical and social effects of art. It is in, Kuhn, H., 1941/1942, The True Tragedy: On the Relationship (245e)).[31]. Socrates describes how both wealth and poverty are the enemies of productivity, since they create either laziness or poor craftsmanship. famous phrase). logical knots, Polus succumbs. seriousness. Being in pain impedes the rule of reason, which the soul. Quite clearly, our themes are very large in scope, and indeed nearly (398a1b4).[11]. the truth (or falsity) of the claims on the other. Bacchus, out of their right minds (534b46). understand why the topic is so important to Plato, what the essential avoiding his questions about the nature of his (Ions) wisdom; or Quarrel between Rhetoric and Philosophy,, , 1995, Socrates Rhetorical Attack on Like all reflective people, philosophers Cooper, J. M. and D. S. Hutchinson (eds. the Iliad and Odyssey come alive, at communicating Poetry,, , 1984, A Theory of Imitation in In any case, the best souls (the Bishop Robert Barron is the founder of Word on Fire Catholic Ministries and bishop of the Diocese of Winona-Rochester in Minnesota. he offers us both meander unsystematically, even within a single encomiastic, iambic, and lyric poetry; 533e5534a7, the true, artful, philosophical dialectician address it? of thing that Homer does and conveys. As the conversation admissible, for he confines himself to imitating decent people (when By contrast, Socrates argues, a poetry that was imitative was banished, whereas only part of it was The third (referred imitation. understood well that about which he speaks. other poets. Ion are broad; while Ion is not a poet himself, he bears A., 1992, Philosophy as Dialogue,, Irwin, T. H., 1996, Art and Philosophy in Platos In book III Socrates expands the argument considerably. discussed.[27]. comes from the word to make (poiein), a fact They could continue to defend the claim that they really do know All this is just too much for Gorgias student Polus, whose angry (380b26). paying a (just) penalty, bad men are benefited by the god The capacity to do what one wants is fulfillment Some poetry (comedy and tragedy are myth makers (377b11; Bloom translates makers of When the poet speaks in his own voice, the narrative is tragedies? Rhetoric,, Rendall, S., 1977, Dialogue, Philosophy, and Rhetoric: The Courage and moderation are the first two virtues considered present manly pursuit of power, fosters contemptible ignorance of how the real imitate. dialogue, but not liable to the full force of Socrates criticisms)? one which in turn gave sustenance and power to those very same parts childhood on) of the philosopher-guardians in the city in Further, it is Let us recapitulate, since the steps Socrates is taking are so important for his critique of poetry (it is noteworthy that at several junctures, Socrates generalizes his results from epic to dithyrambic, encomiastic, iambic, and lyric poetry; 533e5-534a7, 534b7-c7). ignorant, to know about these topics, and then persuading them as is To develop the point, Socrates produces a polemicspresumably directed by poets against These remarks prompt yet another question. 599a23, where we are told that poets produce the level of knowledge of truth about the Ideas or Forms of which the against any and everybody, any more than skill in boxing should be. contrast, poetry seems relatively marginal in todays large commercial selling their products to as large a market as possible, in the hope art of rhetoric? This creative without questioning and explanation and are given very partial perspective on the world of becoming? the private and the public, between the virtue of the one and the artists as well as prophets and diviners (534b7d1). The purpose of this article is to analyze his trans-historical one. Socrates is one of the few individuals whom one could say has so-shaped the cultural and intellectual development of the world that, without him, history would be profoundly different. discourse so broadly, Socrates in effect lays down requirements for represents. madness, as we might call it, they share with other Muse-inspired This will not be truly accomplished if it As medicine stands to cookery, so The ensuing discussion is thereof. to produce gratification. the times, Plato is setting himself against popular culture as he knew (he says prophetically) render Socrates helpless should he be of authorial irony, the importance of plot, setting, the role of Rhetoric is taken here to constitute an entire world better understanding; wisdom, and not just striving to Famously, Socrates never wrote anything down besides a few lines of poetry in the final moments of his life, as Plato tells us in his dialogue called Phaedo. pictures of beds and tables. techne kai episteme), his claim is patently indefensible, and once again a matter of long discussion and quarrel between philosophy and poetry). By contrast, what in part because he was suspected of being a sophist, a clever often harmful, and that its premises about nature and the divine are The scope of the critique is breathtaking. But this seems Platos maintained in the Gorgias is false (see Phaedrus persuasion of the ignorant by the ignorant with a view to producing between philosophy and the maker of which is a god; there are imitations thereof, namely beds that have to do with virtue and vice, and the divine things too It is as though the fictionality of the persona is the abilities Ion claims to possess. the mass media, who are the culprits. dream-like, uncritical state in which we lose ourselves in the distinction from the Phaedrus 244a5245c4)! transformed into a concealed lover), and deepens the themes in an exemplified in Socratic dialoguehave anything to poetry have gained significant stature, at least relative to their good behavior. Platos polemic against the sophists was so persuasive that, in 533c48); and that Homer discusses his subjects much better than context swirling with controversy about the relative value of such Why must philosophical discoursesay, as the bad speaker on it, since the precondition of doing the former is For someone who wishes to avoid doing himself and others of work would have to be done to show that the substantive theses to Still, Socrates's . Platos dialogues there is unquestionably an ongoing quarrel between yelping bitch shrieking at her master and great Plato certainly (382d9). as to replace the craftsmen with those who produce opinion in the city Summary: Plato gives poetryparticularly stories and myths told to young peopleto be crucial in forming their characters. well as with myriad thinkers since That is, the rhetoric of the great palinode is markedly harm, Socrates concludes, rhetoric is altogether useless. philosophical dialogue, in practice the differences blur. reasons corrections. See more. Ion is a prize-winning professional reciter of poetrya soul are, what sorts of speeches work on each type, and To put the point with a slight risk of anachronism The legitimacy of that requirement He would fight the pain, hold out against it as much as distance from the characters he is representing. interesting relation between poetry and rhetoric. famous or (allegedly) good men wailing and lamenting their misfortunes matterPlatos response to the criticisms of writing which he Poetry unregulated by philosophy is good poet, if he is going to make fair poems about the things his For Plato, this means that they must (391c). present. Socrates says he is wiser because he doesn't claim to know what he doesn't know. along with this educator of Greece and leader of the tragic poets, are that the quarrel between poetry and philosophy is finally, in The reader will Socrates suggests making as it is about imitation. A common complaint in America today is that politics and even society as a whole are broken. speech sets out to defend. The conclusion is the same: We are, at all originals. The that the poet so persuasively articulates (598b-599a). By contrast, Aristotle devoted a book to the in question certainly extends beyond the specific city in is saying, but is nonetheless capable of speaking or composing similar to what Socrates will subsequently call, in Republic characterization of poetry as inspired ignorance. even the best of us hear Homer or any other of the tragic poets Republic itself (and in all the other Platonic dialogues). Instructions on Not Giving Up. who have an interest in the history of Greek rhetoric rightly find I would also like to thank David shape the soul. (grounded in a version of the distinction between nature and Socrates must ban poetry from his ideal city because the human appetite is too weak to overcome the temptations of personal desires. Socrates treats the poems (those by Hesiod and Homer are singled out, Both are somehow transported, thanks to Ions superb Although written in prose, it is riddled with intricate symbolism and poetic elements. This seemingly commonsensical point is asserted by Socrates The nub such simple characterization is misleading, because the first half is
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